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	<title>Comments on: Žene su žrtve crkve</title>
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		<title>By: Marijo Živković</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-12428</link>
		<dc:creator>Marijo Živković</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2011 18:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Antonio G. Spagnolo
Gabriella Gambino
(Editors) 
Women&#039;s Health Issues
  
Prefaced by Elio Sgreccia

Text of talk given by Darka and Marijo Zivkovic at Conference on Women&#039;s Health Issues organised by Pontifical Academy fior Life and Georgtown University from US in year 1998. in Vatican

             Catholic Church as most efficient promotor of                                                               
                            Women&#039;s Health and Wome&#039;n Rights
 
By MARIJO AND DARKA ZIVKOVIC
 
 
 
From its beginning Catholic Church is through all ages and social circumstances (tribalism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism, socialism, internationalism, globalism) promoting equality of man and women in personal, family, social and political life.
 
 
Value and preciousness of each human person
 
Church is consistently and constantly through all its 2000 year history proclaiming and promoting a greatest value, preciousness, uniqueness, dignity and beauty of every and each human being male and female.
Church is informing people that each woman is created by individual, loving, creative act of God. That each woman is immortal with her ability to be conscious of herself, to think and to know, to decide and to choose, to love or hate, to be content and happy and to be discontent and unhappy, to be enthusiastic in experiencing beauty and fullness, and to be desperate experiencing nothingness. That with all these capabilities each woman will exist in fifty, hundred, thousand, ten thousand, in a million years, always.
Church is also informing woman that she is adopted, but true child of omnipotent, eternal, loving, just, merciful, forgiving and caring God. Also that God loves each male and female with individual, personal and tender love.
 
 
Protection of woman
 
Church elevates relationships between humans to relationship to God, who is loving, merciful and kind, but also just. Church invites all people to strive to perfection in love, kindness, justice and honesty toward all and each human. It reminds people that God rewards on earth and in eternity every good act or behavior. Christ, true God and true Man proclaims that He takes every act, attitude or relationship to any and each human being, as it is directed to Him. Church informs people that every act or behavior which is unjust, dishonest and against love or kindness is sin, i.e. offense of God Himself. That God punishes every sin by terrestrial and eternal punishment.
Some people do not recognize that God regular reward or punishment on earth we usually call consequence. God punishment for lying is that people do not trust us. For truthfulness reward is confidence people have in us. God punishment for reckless driving is destroyed car mine and others, injuries or death of me, members of my family and others. AIDS, STD, lack of beautiful and successful family life is a consequence of promiscuous behavior, i.e. Gods punishment on earth for such behavior.
 
 


Marriage and family life
 
Church promotes marriage and family based on freely  and personaly chosen, exclusive, permanent, unconditional, faithful, irrevocable, serious, tender and mature love between man and woman, and their similar love toward all their children.
By promotion of such a marital and family love, Church is promoting equality and dignity of woman ( and man ) in most demanding human relationships.
In times when woman was often obedient to man ( father, brother, husband) as slave or servant, Church promoted obedience of woman to man similar to obedience of Church to Christ, i.e. obedience only in things or areas which are just, true, honest, expression of love and kindness to all. Church always treated as sin obedience in things which would mean evident evil toward anyone including woman herself .
To man who often tend to love woman as mean to accomplish something i.e. slave or servant Church proclaim that he should love woman as Christ loves Church, giving Himself for Her and if necessary sacrificing life for loved person.
 
 
Half of pre-born children are women
 
Promoting unconditional love toward all members of family from conception to natural death, Church is protecting woman in most difficult situations. True parental love loves and protects all children planned and unplanned, healthy and unhealthy, specially talented and with mental difficulties. Such love is protecting also from suicidal tendencies. As Mother Teresa said person who experience true love and care does not wish to die.
 
 
Woman in Public life
 
   Only institution which through last two millennium consistently made possible for woman to live and be active in society without being married was Catholic Church. Through institutionalization of religious life for woman, church promoted and enabled woman to act, be accepted and esteemed in society without being married. Church in best way promoted realization and positive emancipation of woman in personal, family and social life.
   In no other religious community, state, region a woman control so much material goods and money without any interference of man as woman religious communities in Catholic Church.
    
 
 
Physical and mental health
 
Proclaiming and promoting for unmarried young and adult faithfulness to future spouse, and for married growth in mutual love which include full faithfulness in thoughts, desires and acts, Church has always and is now promoting physical and mental health of man and woman. In a catholic marriage in which man and woman are capable to and are practicing fidelity also in most difficult circumstances ( long illness, involuntary absence etc ) and live chaste in mutual mature love, out of their freely chosen decisions, mental health of both is very much promoted.
Promoting and enabling, through prayer and sacramental life, physical marital union of man and woman by mutual loving consent without destructive fear of conception, Church is in one more way promoting physical and mental health of woman and man.
Infertility, curable and incurable is by every medical classification serious illness. Fertility i.e. capability to be parent is great and important human capability. By promotion and consistent care and protection of man&#039;s and woman&#039;s fertility ( no physical, chemical, mechanical or any other method of impeding fertility or preventing conception ) Church is in simple, but effective way promoting very important aspect of physical health of man and woman. By promotion of love and care for all, even smallest and tiniest children, and all even most fragile, ill, incapacitated and old people, Church is in most effective way promoting protection of health and life of tiniest pre-born children and most incapacitated senile, invalid
or terminally ill persons.
 
 
Care for young
 
Church respects young and wishes them good. Recently church proclaimed St. Teresa as teacher of all Church. St. Teresa died as young girl at age of 24. Some of her thoughts which Church presents as important to all Church were developed when she was sixteen or younger. Church trust young. When Church asks young to be faithful to future spouse (terrestrial or heavenly), she not only wants to protect them from out of marriage pregnancies, STD illnesses, but expresses to them trust that they are able to live beautiful and saintly life. Accepting Catholic Church positions recently US Congress allotted 250 million of federal money and 187 million of state money to program of education of young for abstinence of „sexual activity“. Between other condition for such progams it states that &quot;abstinence of sexual activity is only certain way to avoid out-of-wedlock pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases and other associated health problems&quot;.
 
 
Church helps not catholic and non religious people
 
Church speaks to all people, specially to those who wish good to themselves and others (people of good wiil). Every position of Catholic Church regarding interpersonal relationships can be sufficiently arguemented and proved to all people, when we invoke common, everyday, to everyone understandable and acceptable honesty, justice, kindness and love. For example contraception, when it is contraception (i.e. not preventing implantation) means temporary sterilization, or inflicting serious illness to oneself. It is against common kindness, love and justice to inflict such illness to oneself or others, or agree, approve or suggest it to someone. Even today in every European country if someone intentionally sterilizes other
without her or his consent, it is offence punishable by law.
Killing of innocent, defensless child because its father is criminal (rape, incest), or because child is ill is also against common justice, kindness and love.
Asking for death of ones own child because lives of mother and child are so interconnected so continuation of pre-born life can make mother life more in danger (if such situations really exist) is obviously against true parental love.
 
 
Church and public life
 
We Catholics as citizens and members of society ask and insist that complete societies accepts certain behavior and laws. We do not try to impose certain specifically catholic positions or views on non Catholics, but we try to impose just and honest behavior to dishonest and unjust people. When we ask legal protection of all pre-born chidren, and terminally ill, invalids and other incapacitated people, we do it because society has to promote justice, not allow injustice.
In some periods Catholics were almost alone in promotion of health care for poor, or schooling for those who can not pay. Gradually through education and work (building hospitals and schools for poor) often done by religious orders specifically organized for these purposes, we succeeded so that in many countries now health protection and schooling for those who can not pay is law and state policy.
Today many countries allow killing of innocent children, some even ill, weak, old and disabled adult. States legalize breaking of marital promise of love and faithfulness by allowing second, third or following marriages, despite former spouse is living, etc. When we try to make such dishonest and unjust behavior illegal, we act as concerned, constructive and good citizens and members of society.
 
 
Church is sometimes alone
 
    Whatever any religious or non religious community has in its program or activity nice, beautiful or good, Catholic Church has it too, but Catholic Church has some nice, good and beautiful contents nobody else has. It is sad to know that some Christian communities declare that matter of killing of pre-born is matter of conscience of its members i.e. someone who claims that it is acceptable to kill children in certain situation is accepted as valid member of that community.
Catholic Church is unique in its moral teaching which is specific, concrete and never changing. It is not possible in name of Catholic Church to do something bad. As soon as someone (even in high church office) would do something what is really dishonest, unjust, against truth, love and kindness, he or she would do it against Catholic faith, Catholic church and Christ Himself, whose mystical body Church is.
 
 
Church offers beautiful and successful life to all
 
Successful and beautiful personal, family and social life is possible to all who really and constantly wish it, and who use adequate methods to accomplish it.
ln every country and in every social group there are many people who are accomplishing to live such life. Those are people who accept and practice true, sincere, mature and serious love in all aspects and areas of their life.
Catholic Church offer adequate and successful methods to everyone to be able to accomplish such a life.
Authentic and complete teaching, meditative and other methods of true prayer, exercise of sacraments, specially authentic Penance and Communion; are the ways which makes possible to every person to accomplish such a life.
This offer of Catholic Church has to be accepted by free decision of person if to be effective for this person.
 
 
Responsibility of Catholics
 
We who have accepted and try to sincerely live according to a gift of authentic and complete Catholic faith are in most privileged position. Of all people we have most beautiful and satisfactory life. Out of these privileges come also obligations to proclaim and inform all people we can reach, and who are prepared to listen and learn about richness, beauty and possibilities of Church teaching. Many people are prepared to listen and learn, specially if we communicate in understandable language. Most understandable language is language of love, respect, compassion, care and friendship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Antonio G. Spagnolo<br />
Gabriella Gambino<br />
(Editors)<br />
Women&#8217;s Health Issues</p>
<p>Prefaced by Elio Sgreccia</p>
<p>Text of talk given by Darka and Marijo Zivkovic at Conference on Women&#8217;s Health Issues organised by Pontifical Academy fior Life and Georgtown University from US in year 1998. in Vatican</p>
<p>             Catholic Church as most efficient promotor of<br />
                            Women&#8217;s Health and Wome&#8217;n Rights</p>
<p>By MARIJO AND DARKA ZIVKOVIC</p>
<p>From its beginning Catholic Church is through all ages and social circumstances (tribalism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism, socialism, internationalism, globalism) promoting equality of man and women in personal, family, social and political life.</p>
<p>Value and preciousness of each human person</p>
<p>Church is consistently and constantly through all its 2000 year history proclaiming and promoting a greatest value, preciousness, uniqueness, dignity and beauty of every and each human being male and female.<br />
Church is informing people that each woman is created by individual, loving, creative act of God. That each woman is immortal with her ability to be conscious of herself, to think and to know, to decide and to choose, to love or hate, to be content and happy and to be discontent and unhappy, to be enthusiastic in experiencing beauty and fullness, and to be desperate experiencing nothingness. That with all these capabilities each woman will exist in fifty, hundred, thousand, ten thousand, in a million years, always.<br />
Church is also informing woman that she is adopted, but true child of omnipotent, eternal, loving, just, merciful, forgiving and caring God. Also that God loves each male and female with individual, personal and tender love.</p>
<p>Protection of woman</p>
<p>Church elevates relationships between humans to relationship to God, who is loving, merciful and kind, but also just. Church invites all people to strive to perfection in love, kindness, justice and honesty toward all and each human. It reminds people that God rewards on earth and in eternity every good act or behavior. Christ, true God and true Man proclaims that He takes every act, attitude or relationship to any and each human being, as it is directed to Him. Church informs people that every act or behavior which is unjust, dishonest and against love or kindness is sin, i.e. offense of God Himself. That God punishes every sin by terrestrial and eternal punishment.<br />
Some people do not recognize that God regular reward or punishment on earth we usually call consequence. God punishment for lying is that people do not trust us. For truthfulness reward is confidence people have in us. God punishment for reckless driving is destroyed car mine and others, injuries or death of me, members of my family and others. AIDS, STD, lack of beautiful and successful family life is a consequence of promiscuous behavior, i.e. Gods punishment on earth for such behavior.</p>
<p>Marriage and family life</p>
<p>Church promotes marriage and family based on freely  and personaly chosen, exclusive, permanent, unconditional, faithful, irrevocable, serious, tender and mature love between man and woman, and their similar love toward all their children.<br />
By promotion of such a marital and family love, Church is promoting equality and dignity of woman ( and man ) in most demanding human relationships.<br />
In times when woman was often obedient to man ( father, brother, husband) as slave or servant, Church promoted obedience of woman to man similar to obedience of Church to Christ, i.e. obedience only in things or areas which are just, true, honest, expression of love and kindness to all. Church always treated as sin obedience in things which would mean evident evil toward anyone including woman herself .<br />
To man who often tend to love woman as mean to accomplish something i.e. slave or servant Church proclaim that he should love woman as Christ loves Church, giving Himself for Her and if necessary sacrificing life for loved person.</p>
<p>Half of pre-born children are women</p>
<p>Promoting unconditional love toward all members of family from conception to natural death, Church is protecting woman in most difficult situations. True parental love loves and protects all children planned and unplanned, healthy and unhealthy, specially talented and with mental difficulties. Such love is protecting also from suicidal tendencies. As Mother Teresa said person who experience true love and care does not wish to die.</p>
<p>Woman in Public life</p>
<p>   Only institution which through last two millennium consistently made possible for woman to live and be active in society without being married was Catholic Church. Through institutionalization of religious life for woman, church promoted and enabled woman to act, be accepted and esteemed in society without being married. Church in best way promoted realization and positive emancipation of woman in personal, family and social life.<br />
   In no other religious community, state, region a woman control so much material goods and money without any interference of man as woman religious communities in Catholic Church.</p>
<p>Physical and mental health</p>
<p>Proclaiming and promoting for unmarried young and adult faithfulness to future spouse, and for married growth in mutual love which include full faithfulness in thoughts, desires and acts, Church has always and is now promoting physical and mental health of man and woman. In a catholic marriage in which man and woman are capable to and are practicing fidelity also in most difficult circumstances ( long illness, involuntary absence etc ) and live chaste in mutual mature love, out of their freely chosen decisions, mental health of both is very much promoted.<br />
Promoting and enabling, through prayer and sacramental life, physical marital union of man and woman by mutual loving consent without destructive fear of conception, Church is in one more way promoting physical and mental health of woman and man.<br />
Infertility, curable and incurable is by every medical classification serious illness. Fertility i.e. capability to be parent is great and important human capability. By promotion and consistent care and protection of man&#8217;s and woman&#8217;s fertility ( no physical, chemical, mechanical or any other method of impeding fertility or preventing conception ) Church is in simple, but effective way promoting very important aspect of physical health of man and woman. By promotion of love and care for all, even smallest and tiniest children, and all even most fragile, ill, incapacitated and old people, Church is in most effective way promoting protection of health and life of tiniest pre-born children and most incapacitated senile, invalid<br />
or terminally ill persons.</p>
<p>Care for young</p>
<p>Church respects young and wishes them good. Recently church proclaimed St. Teresa as teacher of all Church. St. Teresa died as young girl at age of 24. Some of her thoughts which Church presents as important to all Church were developed when she was sixteen or younger. Church trust young. When Church asks young to be faithful to future spouse (terrestrial or heavenly), she not only wants to protect them from out of marriage pregnancies, STD illnesses, but expresses to them trust that they are able to live beautiful and saintly life. Accepting Catholic Church positions recently US Congress allotted 250 million of federal money and 187 million of state money to program of education of young for abstinence of „sexual activity“. Between other condition for such progams it states that &#8220;abstinence of sexual activity is only certain way to avoid out-of-wedlock pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases and other associated health problems&#8221;.</p>
<p>Church helps not catholic and non religious people</p>
<p>Church speaks to all people, specially to those who wish good to themselves and others (people of good wiil). Every position of Catholic Church regarding interpersonal relationships can be sufficiently arguemented and proved to all people, when we invoke common, everyday, to everyone understandable and acceptable honesty, justice, kindness and love. For example contraception, when it is contraception (i.e. not preventing implantation) means temporary sterilization, or inflicting serious illness to oneself. It is against common kindness, love and justice to inflict such illness to oneself or others, or agree, approve or suggest it to someone. Even today in every European country if someone intentionally sterilizes other<br />
without her or his consent, it is offence punishable by law.<br />
Killing of innocent, defensless child because its father is criminal (rape, incest), or because child is ill is also against common justice, kindness and love.<br />
Asking for death of ones own child because lives of mother and child are so interconnected so continuation of pre-born life can make mother life more in danger (if such situations really exist) is obviously against true parental love.</p>
<p>Church and public life</p>
<p>We Catholics as citizens and members of society ask and insist that complete societies accepts certain behavior and laws. We do not try to impose certain specifically catholic positions or views on non Catholics, but we try to impose just and honest behavior to dishonest and unjust people. When we ask legal protection of all pre-born chidren, and terminally ill, invalids and other incapacitated people, we do it because society has to promote justice, not allow injustice.<br />
In some periods Catholics were almost alone in promotion of health care for poor, or schooling for those who can not pay. Gradually through education and work (building hospitals and schools for poor) often done by religious orders specifically organized for these purposes, we succeeded so that in many countries now health protection and schooling for those who can not pay is law and state policy.<br />
Today many countries allow killing of innocent children, some even ill, weak, old and disabled adult. States legalize breaking of marital promise of love and faithfulness by allowing second, third or following marriages, despite former spouse is living, etc. When we try to make such dishonest and unjust behavior illegal, we act as concerned, constructive and good citizens and members of society.</p>
<p>Church is sometimes alone</p>
<p>    Whatever any religious or non religious community has in its program or activity nice, beautiful or good, Catholic Church has it too, but Catholic Church has some nice, good and beautiful contents nobody else has. It is sad to know that some Christian communities declare that matter of killing of pre-born is matter of conscience of its members i.e. someone who claims that it is acceptable to kill children in certain situation is accepted as valid member of that community.<br />
Catholic Church is unique in its moral teaching which is specific, concrete and never changing. It is not possible in name of Catholic Church to do something bad. As soon as someone (even in high church office) would do something what is really dishonest, unjust, against truth, love and kindness, he or she would do it against Catholic faith, Catholic church and Christ Himself, whose mystical body Church is.</p>
<p>Church offers beautiful and successful life to all</p>
<p>Successful and beautiful personal, family and social life is possible to all who really and constantly wish it, and who use adequate methods to accomplish it.<br />
ln every country and in every social group there are many people who are accomplishing to live such life. Those are people who accept and practice true, sincere, mature and serious love in all aspects and areas of their life.<br />
Catholic Church offer adequate and successful methods to everyone to be able to accomplish such a life.<br />
Authentic and complete teaching, meditative and other methods of true prayer, exercise of sacraments, specially authentic Penance and Communion; are the ways which makes possible to every person to accomplish such a life.<br />
This offer of Catholic Church has to be accepted by free decision of person if to be effective for this person.</p>
<p>Responsibility of Catholics</p>
<p>We who have accepted and try to sincerely live according to a gift of authentic and complete Catholic faith are in most privileged position. Of all people we have most beautiful and satisfactory life. Out of these privileges come also obligations to proclaim and inform all people we can reach, and who are prepared to listen and learn about richness, beauty and possibilities of Church teaching. Many people are prepared to listen and learn, specially if we communicate in understandable language. Most understandable language is language of love, respect, compassion, care and friendship.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Borek</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-12288</link>
		<dc:creator>Borek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2011 02:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://david-udruga.hr/portal/?p=11#comment-12288</guid>
		<description>Naravno da je Crkva od samog začetka leglo zla lažnog morala i to nije nikakva tajna. Ono što propovjeda o čednosti, suosjećajnosti, ljubavi i ...poslušnosti je namjenjeno masi koju bez milosti, bez suosjećajnost i bez ikakve ljubavi iskorištava, dok zločin, genocid i kulturocid zadržava za sebe kao ekskluzivno pravo.  No Crkva radi u skladu sa svojim kanonom. Gospodo, proučite malo bolje kanone vlastite vjeroispovjesti, ne samo školske kateheze.

«Stari je zavjet neodvojiv dio Svetog pisma. Njegove su knjige od Boga nadahnute i neprolazne vrijednosti, jer Stari savez nije nikad bio opozvan.» (II. VATIKANSKI SABOR, Dei Verbum, 14.)
 
 Prema staroj izreci, Novi zavjet se u Staromu skriva, a Stari se u Novom otkriva: &quot;Novum in Vetere latet et in Novo Vetus patet&quot;.(SV. AUGUSTIN, Quaestiones in Heptateucum, 2, 73: PL 34, 623; usp. II. VATIKANSKI SABOR, Dei Verbum, 16. )

(Isus Mt 5,17) - “Ne mislite da sam došao dokinuti Zakon ili Proroke. Nisam došao dokinuti, nego ispuniti. Zaista, kažem vam, dok ne prođe nebo i zemlja, ne, ni jedno slovce, ni jedan potezić iz Zakona neće proći, dok se sve ne zbude. (19) Tko dakle ukine jednu od tih, pa i najmanjih zapovijedi i tako nauči ljude, najmanji će biti u kraljevstvu nebeskom. A tko ih bude vršio i druge učio, taj će biti velik u kraljevstvu nebeskom.”

Kršćanski kanon sastavljen od Crkve obuhvaća 46 knjiga Starog i 27 knjiga Novog zavjeta.

Kanon - skup ili popis spisa koji se smatraju Bogom nadahnutima i kao takvi predstavljaju normu vjere i morala.

Za gospodina Roberta:
– Papa Ivan Pavao II (1988, iz knjige: Nur für kluge Köpfe und gute Analytiker. Wer sitzt auf dem Stuhl Petri Band 2, Verlag Das Wort, 2006, str. 172) .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Naravno da je Crkva od samog začetka leglo zla lažnog morala i to nije nikakva tajna. Ono što propovjeda o čednosti, suosjećajnosti, ljubavi i &#8230;poslušnosti je namjenjeno masi koju bez milosti, bez suosjećajnost i bez ikakve ljubavi iskorištava, dok zločin, genocid i kulturocid zadržava za sebe kao ekskluzivno pravo.  No Crkva radi u skladu sa svojim kanonom. Gospodo, proučite malo bolje kanone vlastite vjeroispovjesti, ne samo školske kateheze.</p>
<p>«Stari je zavjet neodvojiv dio Svetog pisma. Njegove su knjige od Boga nadahnute i neprolazne vrijednosti, jer Stari savez nije nikad bio opozvan.» (II. VATIKANSKI SABOR, Dei Verbum, 14.)</p>
<p> Prema staroj izreci, Novi zavjet se u Staromu skriva, a Stari se u Novom otkriva: &#8220;Novum in Vetere latet et in Novo Vetus patet&#8221;.(SV. AUGUSTIN, Quaestiones in Heptateucum, 2, 73: PL 34, 623; usp. II. VATIKANSKI SABOR, Dei Verbum, 16. )</p>
<p>(Isus Mt 5,17) &#8211; “Ne mislite da sam došao dokinuti Zakon ili Proroke. Nisam došao dokinuti, nego ispuniti. Zaista, kažem vam, dok ne prođe nebo i zemlja, ne, ni jedno slovce, ni jedan potezić iz Zakona neće proći, dok se sve ne zbude. (19) Tko dakle ukine jednu od tih, pa i najmanjih zapovijedi i tako nauči ljude, najmanji će biti u kraljevstvu nebeskom. A tko ih bude vršio i druge učio, taj će biti velik u kraljevstvu nebeskom.”</p>
<p>Kršćanski kanon sastavljen od Crkve obuhvaća 46 knjiga Starog i 27 knjiga Novog zavjeta.</p>
<p>Kanon &#8211; skup ili popis spisa koji se smatraju Bogom nadahnutima i kao takvi predstavljaju normu vjere i morala.</p>
<p>Za gospodina Roberta:<br />
– Papa Ivan Pavao II (1988, iz knjige: Nur für kluge Köpfe und gute Analytiker. Wer sitzt auf dem Stuhl Petri Band 2, Verlag Das Wort, 2006, str. 172) .</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Iz Makedonije</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-12095</link>
		<dc:creator>Iz Makedonije</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://david-udruga.hr/portal/?p=11#comment-12095</guid>
		<description>@robert
To sto je gospodin Hoblaj citirao jeste paragraf 832 iz 2.izdanja Katolickog Katekizma.  Potpuni prevod na engleskom jeziku objavljen(dopustenjem vatikanske &quot;Amministrazione Del Patrimonio Della Sede Apostolica&quot;)  je na ovome webu:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III

@slatkovski i @toše
Moris Hoblaj je diplomirani katolicki teolog, stoga je dobro upucen u ucenje  katolicke crkve. 

Papa Ivan Pavao II je u vise navrata potvrdio da zena nema prava biti svecenik stoga nema prava  naucavati, vec treba sutjeti.  O tome je &quot;argumentovano&quot; govorio u svome apostolskomu pismu od 22.05.1994 nazvanom ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

Toboznju ispravnost toga ucenja potvrdila je Kongregacija za Doktrinu Vjere(tada predvodjenom Jozefom Racingerom, danas papa Benedikt) u svom zvanicnom pismu RESPONSUM AD DUBIUM:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFRESPO.HTM

Papa Ivan Pavao II je puno lijepoga govorio o pravama zena ali u praksi njegova institucija tokom XX stoljeca osim praznih retorickih i teoloskih govora gotovo nista nije ucinila da se situacija zene u drustvu poboljsa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@robert<br />
To sto je gospodin Hoblaj citirao jeste paragraf 832 iz 2.izdanja Katolickog Katekizma.  Potpuni prevod na engleskom jeziku objavljen(dopustenjem vatikanske &#8220;Amministrazione Del Patrimonio Della Sede Apostolica&#8221;)  je na ovome webu:<br />
<a href="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III" rel="nofollow">http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III</a></p>
<p>@slatkovski i @toše<br />
Moris Hoblaj je diplomirani katolicki teolog, stoga je dobro upucen u ucenje  katolicke crkve. </p>
<p>Papa Ivan Pavao II je u vise navrata potvrdio da zena nema prava biti svecenik stoga nema prava  naucavati, vec treba sutjeti.  O tome je &#8220;argumentovano&#8221; govorio u svome apostolskomu pismu od 22.05.1994 nazvanom ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html</a></p>
<p>Toboznju ispravnost toga ucenja potvrdila je Kongregacija za Doktrinu Vjere(tada predvodjenom Jozefom Racingerom, danas papa Benedikt) u svom zvanicnom pismu RESPONSUM AD DUBIUM:<br />
<a href="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFRESPO.HTM" rel="nofollow">http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFRESPO.HTM</a></p>
<p>Papa Ivan Pavao II je puno lijepoga govorio o pravama zena ali u praksi njegova institucija tokom XX stoljeca osim praznih retorickih i teoloskih govora gotovo nista nije ucinila da se situacija zene u drustvu poboljsa.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Sonja Krivokapić</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-3808</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonja Krivokapić</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://david-udruga.hr/portal/?p=11#comment-3808</guid>
		<description>Čitajući, pored članka, i komentare ispod, strašno mi je žao kako se veoma lako opravdava Ckrvu. Kako se mnogo bavim njenom poviješću, čitam i gledam sve što ima veze s njom, tako sam naišla na ove argumente kod mnogo pristaša Crkve. Meni osobno je jasno da nikako ne stoji uspoređivanje obitelji i Crkve. Osoba ne bira obitelj u kojoj se rađa a itekako bira hoće li postati predstavnikom određene institucije, prema svojim stavovima, namjerama, željama i težnjama. Ne može se reći &quot;nisu svi savršeni&quot;. Pogotovo se ta rečenica ne može izreći kao odgovor na sve genocide koje je Crkva u povijesti počinila. Takva je rečenica vrlo orkutna i ingorantna, pogotovo ako dolazi iz usta katolika koji se istodobno naziva punim Kristove ljubavi.  &quot;Ljudi griješe&quot; je svakako točna izjava, dakako da griješe. Ali ova je izjava posve neadekvatna ako govorimo o Crkvi. Greška je kad slučajno nekome stanete na nogu ili ako u kavu umjesto šećera stavite sol. Greška je ne pogoditi točan rezultat matematičkog zadatka. Greška nikako NIJE planiranje i izgradnja strojeva i naprava za mučenje, greška nije izvršavanje genocida, greška nije doći u Afriku i reći da kondomi povećavaju rizik od zaraze AIDS-a, greška nije gnjusno tretiranje žena od institucionaliziranja Crkve do danas. To nisu greške. 
Evo jedna priča. Jedna starija Katarka (Katari - vjerska skupina u srednjem vijeku u Francuskoj nad kojom je izvšen genocid od strane Crkve) je ležala na smrtnoj postelji. Skupina Katara joj je trebala dati posljednju pomast. Pripadnik Crkve vidio je to i otišao dojaviti Ckrvi. Uskoro je došao biskup i sjeo pored njenog kreveta. Počelo je suptilno ispitivanje žene. Ona, ne sluteći tko je čovjek pored nje, pričala mu je o svojoj vjeri. Nakon njenog monologa biskup je viknuo: &quot;Pa ti si heretik!&quot; Potom je pozvao ostale biskupe. Skupa s krevetom iznijeli su je pod zidine Toulousea i živu spalili. Je li to greška? Nehotična radnja koju poslije požalimo? Ne bih rekla. Nikako ne bih rekla.
 A reći &quot;Mi nismo znali bolje, nisu ni drugi&quot;. Za što je onda Crkva?! A nakon tolikih ubojstava, mučenja, nepravdi,i svih grozota koje je Crkva prouzročila i uzrokuje ih i danas, je li fer reći da to nije važno i da to nije ono što je središte Crkve, nego vjerska poruka koju ona daje? Kao da ja sjedim na optuženičkoj klupi terećena za ubojstvo i kao protuargument mom uhapšenju izjavim: &quot;Dobro, ubila sam, ali nisam ja cijela takva! Poljubila sam majku za Božić i poklonila joj nešto!&quot;. Je li fer širiti poruku ljubavi i oprosta a istovremeno nemati nikakvu ljubav niti oprost prema onima koji su ne učinili nešto loše, ne ni to, nego prema onima koji su druge vjere? Je li zaista u redu ispred ljubavi i oprosta staviti svoj stav o kondomima kada se radi o ljudima koji bez njih umiru (Afrika)? A ako se to već nije moglo, da li se moglo NE PREKRŠITI JEDNU OD BOŽJIH ZAPOVIJEDI i ne LAGATI ljudima da kondomi šire virus AIDS-a? I sve u svrhu odanosti svojoj religiji? A što je s ljubavlju, suosjećanjem, tolerancijom, pomoći?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Čitajući, pored članka, i komentare ispod, strašno mi je žao kako se veoma lako opravdava Ckrvu. Kako se mnogo bavim njenom poviješću, čitam i gledam sve što ima veze s njom, tako sam naišla na ove argumente kod mnogo pristaša Crkve. Meni osobno je jasno da nikako ne stoji uspoređivanje obitelji i Crkve. Osoba ne bira obitelj u kojoj se rađa a itekako bira hoće li postati predstavnikom određene institucije, prema svojim stavovima, namjerama, željama i težnjama. Ne može se reći &#8220;nisu svi savršeni&#8221;. Pogotovo se ta rečenica ne može izreći kao odgovor na sve genocide koje je Crkva u povijesti počinila. Takva je rečenica vrlo orkutna i ingorantna, pogotovo ako dolazi iz usta katolika koji se istodobno naziva punim Kristove ljubavi.  &#8220;Ljudi griješe&#8221; je svakako točna izjava, dakako da griješe. Ali ova je izjava posve neadekvatna ako govorimo o Crkvi. Greška je kad slučajno nekome stanete na nogu ili ako u kavu umjesto šećera stavite sol. Greška je ne pogoditi točan rezultat matematičkog zadatka. Greška nikako NIJE planiranje i izgradnja strojeva i naprava za mučenje, greška nije izvršavanje genocida, greška nije doći u Afriku i reći da kondomi povećavaju rizik od zaraze AIDS-a, greška nije gnjusno tretiranje žena od institucionaliziranja Crkve do danas. To nisu greške.<br />
Evo jedna priča. Jedna starija Katarka (Katari &#8211; vjerska skupina u srednjem vijeku u Francuskoj nad kojom je izvšen genocid od strane Crkve) je ležala na smrtnoj postelji. Skupina Katara joj je trebala dati posljednju pomast. Pripadnik Crkve vidio je to i otišao dojaviti Ckrvi. Uskoro je došao biskup i sjeo pored njenog kreveta. Počelo je suptilno ispitivanje žene. Ona, ne sluteći tko je čovjek pored nje, pričala mu je o svojoj vjeri. Nakon njenog monologa biskup je viknuo: &#8220;Pa ti si heretik!&#8221; Potom je pozvao ostale biskupe. Skupa s krevetom iznijeli su je pod zidine Toulousea i živu spalili. Je li to greška? Nehotična radnja koju poslije požalimo? Ne bih rekla. Nikako ne bih rekla.<br />
 A reći &#8220;Mi nismo znali bolje, nisu ni drugi&#8221;. Za što je onda Crkva?! A nakon tolikih ubojstava, mučenja, nepravdi,i svih grozota koje je Crkva prouzročila i uzrokuje ih i danas, je li fer reći da to nije važno i da to nije ono što je središte Crkve, nego vjerska poruka koju ona daje? Kao da ja sjedim na optuženičkoj klupi terećena za ubojstvo i kao protuargument mom uhapšenju izjavim: &#8220;Dobro, ubila sam, ali nisam ja cijela takva! Poljubila sam majku za Božić i poklonila joj nešto!&#8221;. Je li fer širiti poruku ljubavi i oprosta a istovremeno nemati nikakvu ljubav niti oprost prema onima koji su ne učinili nešto loše, ne ni to, nego prema onima koji su druge vjere? Je li zaista u redu ispred ljubavi i oprosta staviti svoj stav o kondomima kada se radi o ljudima koji bez njih umiru (Afrika)? A ako se to već nije moglo, da li se moglo NE PREKRŠITI JEDNU OD BOŽJIH ZAPOVIJEDI i ne LAGATI ljudima da kondomi šire virus AIDS-a? I sve u svrhu odanosti svojoj religiji? A što je s ljubavlju, suosjećanjem, tolerancijom, pomoći?</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: slatkovski</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-59</link>
		<dc:creator>slatkovski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:41:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://david-udruga.hr/portal/?p=11#comment-59</guid>
		<description>@ MORIS HOBLAJ #2

Dragi Morise,
vaši motivi su mi sumnjivi, s obzirom da dobro znam što je Isus naučavao...hoćete li mi reći gdje je to Isus naučavao jednakost muškarca i žene? JEDNAKOST?
Možemo govoriti o ravnopravnosti, to svakako - pa ljudska smo bića! Ali jednakost?

A što se tiče neravnopravnosti, svaka zajednica ima svoju hijerarhiju. Zanimljivo mi je kako samo Katoličku Crkvu prozivate... a što je sa Muslimanima? Mogli bismo čak pročitati što u Kur&#039;anu piše u ženama.... a uopće ih ne spominjete?

Pretpostavljam da je to zato što o tome ništa ne znate, jer ste &quot;biblijski kršćanin&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ MORIS HOBLAJ #2</p>
<p>Dragi Morise,<br />
vaši motivi su mi sumnjivi, s obzirom da dobro znam što je Isus naučavao&#8230;hoćete li mi reći gdje je to Isus naučavao jednakost muškarca i žene? JEDNAKOST?<br />
Možemo govoriti o ravnopravnosti, to svakako &#8211; pa ljudska smo bića! Ali jednakost?</p>
<p>A što se tiče neravnopravnosti, svaka zajednica ima svoju hijerarhiju. Zanimljivo mi je kako samo Katoličku Crkvu prozivate&#8230; a što je sa Muslimanima? Mogli bismo čak pročitati što u Kur&#8217;anu piše u ženama&#8230;. a uopće ih ne spominjete?</p>
<p>Pretpostavljam da je to zato što o tome ništa ne znate, jer ste &#8220;biblijski kršćanin&#8221;.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: slatkovski</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-58</link>
		<dc:creator>slatkovski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://david-udruga.hr/portal/?p=11#comment-58</guid>
		<description>@ MORIS HOBLAJ

Poštovani Morise, zamoljeni ste da navedete izvor izjave Pape koji to govori o ženama.

Niste to učinili. Ima li tome kakav poseban razlog?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ MORIS HOBLAJ</p>
<p>Poštovani Morise, zamoljeni ste da navedete izvor izjave Pape koji to govori o ženama.</p>
<p>Niste to učinili. Ima li tome kakav poseban razlog?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ras Tafari Makonnen</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Ras Tafari Makonnen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://david-udruga.hr/portal/?p=11#comment-42</guid>
		<description>Bog je jedini pravedni sudac! Bog jedini prosuđuje. Ljudi mogu biti suci, ali ne mogu donositi presude - to čini Najviši Sudac! 
Kao što je brat Robert rekao, kritički osvrt je svakako dobrodošao. Ali vraćati se u srednji vijek i uporno čupati to iz tog vremena i tumačiti ga u kontextu današnjeg nema smisla. Umjesto da se fokusiramo na sadašnjost gdje su mogućnosti da se čovjek konkretno zalaže za dobro u svijetu puno veće. Rat u Iraku je aktualna problematika. Bavimo se time, a ne srednjim vijekom!

Rispekt!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bog je jedini pravedni sudac! Bog jedini prosuđuje. Ljudi mogu biti suci, ali ne mogu donositi presude &#8211; to čini Najviši Sudac!<br />
Kao što je brat Robert rekao, kritički osvrt je svakako dobrodošao. Ali vraćati se u srednji vijek i uporno čupati to iz tog vremena i tumačiti ga u kontextu današnjeg nema smisla. Umjesto da se fokusiramo na sadašnjost gdje su mogućnosti da se čovjek konkretno zalaže za dobro u svijetu puno veće. Rat u Iraku je aktualna problematika. Bavimo se time, a ne srednjim vijekom!</p>
<p>Rispekt!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ivek</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://david-udruga.hr/portal/?p=11#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Gore navedena izjava onog jadovana je parafraziran ulomak iz poslanice Efežanima 5:21-33, Timotejeve i drugih poslanica.  No, takožđer u Bibliji stoji da otac može prodati svoju kćer.  Također stoji i da otac kako bi zaštitio gosta može dati napadačima da mu siluju djecu ali da gosta kojeg primi mora zaštititi.
Pa.. poruka je jasna; tražite li normalnu poruku usklađenu sa vremenom i vrijednostima koje živimo u bibliji - vi niste normalni.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gore navedena izjava onog jadovana je parafraziran ulomak iz poslanice Efežanima 5:21-33, Timotejeve i drugih poslanica.  No, takožđer u Bibliji stoji da otac može prodati svoju kćer.  Također stoji i da otac kako bi zaštitio gosta može dati napadačima da mu siluju djecu ali da gosta kojeg primi mora zaštititi.<br />
Pa.. poruka je jasna; tražite li normalnu poruku usklađenu sa vremenom i vrijednostima koje živimo u bibliji &#8211; vi niste normalni.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Toše</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Toše</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 06:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://david-udruga.hr/portal/?p=11#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Bog ti pamet prosvjetlio, a zašto si toliko pun mržnje, zla i zavisti? Obrati se i vjeruj evanđelju, vjeruj Kristu. Krsti se. Nije važno jesi li ti pravoslavac ili katolik ili si ateist, al nemoj lagati, nemoj izmišljati, nemoj sijati mržnju među ljude.  Koji je tvoj cilj?!?
Pođi jedne nedjelje na Svetu Misu, bilo u katoličku ili pravoslavnu Crkvu i poslušaj. Jao se tebi u onaj dan ako se ne promjeniš. Jao ti se.
Molit ću se za tebe večeras. 
Isus vas sve ljubi!
Amen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bog ti pamet prosvjetlio, a zašto si toliko pun mržnje, zla i zavisti? Obrati se i vjeruj evanđelju, vjeruj Kristu. Krsti se. Nije važno jesi li ti pravoslavac ili katolik ili si ateist, al nemoj lagati, nemoj izmišljati, nemoj sijati mržnju među ljude.  Koji je tvoj cilj?!?<br />
Pođi jedne nedjelje na Svetu Misu, bilo u katoličku ili pravoslavnu Crkvu i poslušaj. Jao se tebi u onaj dan ako se ne promjeniš. Jao ti se.<br />
Molit ću se za tebe večeras.<br />
Isus vas sve ljubi!<br />
Amen</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Toše</title>
		<link>http://david-udruga.hr/knjige/2009/03/03/zene-su-zrtve-crkve/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Toše</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 06:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://david-udruga.hr/portal/?p=11#comment-34</guid>
		<description>Moris vi ste judaist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moris vi ste judaist?</p>
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